WOMEN AND RELIGION

CHURCH CONTROLLED BY MEN

AIM SARAJEVO, September 13, 1999

When women joined the labour force, started participating in political processes and gained right the to plan their own families it was all considered as an expression of the emancipation of women and increased equality in relation to men. At the same time, under new social and political conditions in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina these processes are treated as their flight from their basic role - that of a mother and house keeper.

If the motto of the post-communist society is "that we should learn to live with dangers and challenges of freedom", the question is what is the magic formula for the equality between sexes.

The answer is right here within our grasp: women would have a greater chance of succeeding if as their allies they could win over enlightened men who think that the position of women in the Bosnian-Herzegovinian society is today unequal in many respects and who are therefore willing to help change that situation. But, how? This problem can be seen on two levels: on the one hand, the global one on which emancipated men publicly promote the idea on the need for greater recognition of women in the society, need for them to penetrate all segments of social life - high politics, science, diplomacy, military, etc. - in which they are under-represented, while the second level is their private and family life. In everyday life it is necessary to link these two levels.

There are many reasons for which we have chosen father Ivo Markovic a theologian and a man well-versed in the women's movements both here and in the world, as our collocutor.

The first question was about the position of the women's movement in B&H and vis-a-vis general world trends.

"On the one hand we have here the tradition of such emancipatory, left movements which imply the liberation of women. Our common name for it is the secularisation of women. Women are involved in that project, they participate, but are in the minority. On the other hand, the majority of women here live surrounded by religious and national traditions and in my opinion that is why the women's movement does not help many women. What is to be done? Women's movement should get connected with a women's movement that is starting to develop within religions since the existing religions (Orthodoxy, Catholicism, Islam) can be defined as systems which are limiting women. In other words, men made them in order to control women more easily as exclusively a factor of reproduction. Women are reduced to the role of reproduction means because that is how nation's reproduction is ensured, which is in turn decisive for the reproduction of religions. And now these religions have to be "awakened", "become conscious". Invoking God they have to admit that they have created strong forms of slavery for women. I mean that spiritual movements within the church should promote freedom, recognition of a man as human being, as well as create new opportunities for women."

"Despite all its totalitarian characteristics, the socialist society has ensured a certain degree of equality for women, helped them get out of home, granted them legal right to education, work and freedom to give birth, gave them a chance. How do you evaluate such products of those times?"

"In the course of my research I have discovered that women were actually the first atheists. It was easy for a man at that time to make compromises: although he was a member of the Party, he had to have his child baptised, get married in the church, have his child circumcised - and HE did just that. On the other hand SHE radically said: My child will not be baptised! She saw something slavish in the religion as she had experienced it herself. Now, see, in this post-communist era we have a wave of conservatism. National parties with their traditional religions are in power and now they are creating social frameworks. But, at the same time there is another rather subtle process in progress - one which is characterised by its express mistrust of religions as they are now (I have in mind religions as structures) and which are in cahoots with the national parties. Religions will foot the bill for such conduct, for presenting themselves as national and nationalistic and, to say the least, retrograde and outside all contemporary trends in the world today. Something similar has already happened in Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary. Luckily, there is some space, a chance for the activity of other parties and spiritual movements which want to create more space for the liberation of women".

"This is an extremely original idea. It is interesting that in religious communities women are practically not mentioned simply because that is qualified as "freedom of one's choice". Isn't that a kind of opportunism?"

"See, that liberating, women's movement needs a Moslem woman who lying prostrate prays to God, but at the same time fights and demands her human rights. We are witnesses of the inauguration of some sort of a Taliban model which will enslave women."

"Situation is the same with Orthodoxy and Catholicism. Still, there is one thing that is not known today - i.e there are many women today who are very critical of the church and demand a more active role in it. I mean that the women's movement in B&H should maintain closer links with such women, while on the other hand, the movement for secularisation will provide the necessary fresh inspiration. In other words, as I see it religions have lost contact with the world and the secular movement has lost its energy, inner strength and impulsiveness. Modern processes integrate such trends and that is what I think that women have to do. I claim that today women are the best theologians and that the most liberating theologies are written by directly women, while men are just armchair theologians. Women are interested in specific questions and with "their theology" they find answers to them. It is only necessary to offer to the public all that is done in Catholicism, Orthodoxy and Islam, to inform it how passionately these women fight for their emancipation. That should be translated and written about."

"Religions have globalized patriarchy, which in turn has created a hierarchy of power which is in the hands of men. This model is functioning well and implies the total control over women. When this is said aloud it sounds rather abstract. But isn't that very concrete and rather cruel in real life?"

"You see, men have "conquered" religions. The Catholic church is one hundred percent in the hands of men, starting from the Pope down to the grass roots. And the consequences are disastrous because today men are going through a crisis as they are living under constant stress of trying to be successful. They live shorter lives and women and their social reputation are indispensable to them. But, this is power and since power is - well, power, they will not give it up so easily. We can call this being in a service, but that kind of service is easily turned into power. Women should get organised and struggle for their rights. I do not think that only women should raise their voice, but I think that they should be the first to do so since they are denied their rights, they do not enjoy the same rights and equal opportunities as men. Men should join them in this struggle. For example, I myself want to be a part of that movement as a theologian, because as a theologian I preach liberation and salvation. A true salvation, because God is the Saviour and not the enslaver of men. See, many here preach of God as a dictator, a tyrant, God as a policeman and not God as love and salvation. That type of criticism is very important and takes us back to our sources: the Bible, the Koran, i.e. the foundations of our inspiration. Such criticism is necessary here and women have yet to discover that."

There is an essential problem in B&H: women are simply ignorant of their "female history". It seems as if everything has started yesterday. This should be studied, written about, evaluated. That is what women of Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia have done".

"Yes, that is necessary because these processes take long, at least one century. This is where we should draw our energy from. I am well informed of everything modern and new on the women's scene in the neighbouring countries. It is all part of global developments. But, this area is different in many aspects. Rural and patriarchal influence is strong here. Also, men are omnipresent in all religious structures and this is reflected in society. The reason for that is that religions and God are considered here to be patrons of social norms and the same is attempted in politics. In other words women can only act with force. They need the media, papers with high circulation. In other words, the women's movement exists, but it should be provided with a substantive charge. We must translate world literature which will help women to understand their position better. Without that, without the elaborated functioning of the system we can interfere."

When there are only seven percent of women in politics we had to interfere. There was not much use of that interference because we first have to resolve these problems within the system and then start planning some twenty years ahead. You see, today in Bosnia a male child has 50 percent more chances to get educated just because he is male. You have bright girls who remain indoors and thus miss their chance just because they are girls. One should see what is going on in schools, enterprises. Women's movement should not have the effect of a short circuit or operate in a "heave-ho" style: something happens and they raise dust making a poor imitation of bad parties. That is no success."

RADA SESAR

(AIM Sarajevo)