INTERVIEW WITH A CAUSE: SEJFUDIN TOKIC AND MILORAD

DODIK

HOW TO ACCOMPLISH PEACE IN BOSNIA&HERZEGOVINA

AIM, SARAJEVO, June 2, 1995 The war in Bosnia&Herzegovina is probably approaching a period of a decisive turning point: this space will either continue to be a scaffold of new generations for a long time to come, or the idea about territorialization of nations into ethnic pens will finally capitulate. Inexplicable illusion that it is possible to arrive at the latter by pressing the main actors and creators of the former petrified all peace negototiations on the level of warriors' reality. In the past few days in Perugia (just for the sake of symbolism, the first contacts between the Palestinians and the Israelis took place right here), the opposition in the Assembly of B&H talked with the opposition from the territories controlled by Karadzic's administration. International mediators in peace negotiations will certainly be surprised with the speed the oppositionists of the two parties reached an agreement and put signatures on a joint document, while for world diplomats and local leaders even the fourth year of bloodshed in Bosnia& Herzegovina is too short.

Milorad Dodik is the chairman of the group of independent deputies in the parliament of the so-called "Republic of Srpska", Karadzic's cancer which advocates adoption of the Contact Group plan and which was the first to reveal the truth that not even all members of the Serb Democratic Party (SDS) in their totalitarianism share the opinions of the perverted psychiatrist. Sejfudin Tokic, Chairman of the Club of Deputies of the Union of B&H Social Democrats and the Vice-President of this party, has already become the synonym of resistance to the single-party regime the Party od Democratic Action (SDA) is establishing in B&H, an oppositionist who is considered to be critical towards the upstarts and nationalists among the authorities to such an extent that a special strategy for "checking Tokic" is elaborated in the camp of the power-wielders, and a separate one (they say, a much easier one) for the rest of the opposition. These two deputies, elected in the 1990 parliamentary elections in B&H, in the presence of representatives of the Serb Civic Council and Association of Independent Intellectuals called the "Circle 99", agreed that the resolution of the conflict by political means and complete interruption of conflicts for the sake of establishing stable peace must be founded on the Contact Group plan. Their signatures stand on a document which reads that Bosnia & Herzegovina should be structured as a Union B&H with several constituting units, that constitutional guarantees must be provided for equality of its nations and all its citizens, but it also insists on punishment of all war criminals and determination of individual responsibility, but against proclaiming that entire nations are criminals. It is evident that much more was agreed than the document prepared for the public, but our interlocutors claim that this is the basis for further talks, but also the paper they will be taking with them on their visit to diplomacies of the countries of the Contact Group for B&H.

To what extent this initiative will affect resolution of the conflict in Bosnia & Herzegvina is an open issue. But, the first contact of the opposition from the territories controlled by the Army of B&H and those controlled by the Bosnian Serbs deserves attention, primarily because the protagonists of this meeting are planning to broaden this initiative and establish a network of democratic alternative organizations, so that the next gathering is planned to include representatives of more opposition parties, associations and individuals from both sides. Undoubtedly, when they return to their environments, both our interlocutors will meet, mildly speaking, with criticism of their respective authorities and they will be labelled as "traitors" who have dared talk with the "enemy", which was until now considered to be the exclusive privilege of the leaders of national parties in power. That is exactly why our first question is the motivation for mutual contacts in conditions of escalation of war and interethnic intolerance.

TOKIC: Peace negotiations that went on based on the logic "one territory - one nation - one party" have met with total fiasco, and the offered plans were quite often more aimed at causing new conflicts than their pacification. It is therefore, politically naive to believe that Izetbegovic and Karadzic, after their preelection embrace in 1990, coalition love in 1992, 1993, 1994 and 1995, can arrange peace and normalization of life in the B&H space. Without placing guilt on the same level, it is still obvious that stable peace eliminates from the political scene national leaders who have established themselves on projects of interethnic tensions and alleged discrimination against their nation. On top of all that, Karadzic will quite certainly have to face international trial for war crimes. Due to these facts, they cannot be representatives of an increasing number of citizens of B&H, regardless of nationality, who are against the war, against further suffering. Indeed, anti-war disposition may be articulated by democratic alternative groups and organizations from the space controlled by the Government of B&H and territories controlled by Karadzic's administration. In fact, disposition of an ordinary man - cheated and used by national oligarchies, and deserted by the international community - motivated us and prompted us to this kind of political contacts.

DODIK: I am convinced, regardless of whether the war will soon end or last for an indefinite time in the future, that the option I am in favour of together with the other members of the Club of independent deputies - will be victorious. This Club was founded in the end of December last year as a result of our individual activities during a long period of time, with the fundamental aim to end the war and eliminate the conflict, but also to show that in the very "Republic of Srpska" an alternative political group exists which does not share the stance of the ruling SDS. The fact is that the political option of our group, which has just been joined by another deputy, is supported by a certain number of people who belong to the SDS, but rigid party and every other discipline, discourages them to be more actively engaged in implementing it. Although the independent Club does not have a profile of a political party, nor does it act in support of any of the parties that exist in this space, in our political struggle, we start from the essential fact that it will be difficult to achieve peace with people who have started this war. Ruling structures on all sides actually maintain and support one another, and it is impossible to expect a lasting peaceful solution with them. Simply, if there was a structure that started the war on one side, there must have been a party which accepted it on the other, so peace is still an illusion. Due to everything that has happened, even if it is difficult at this moment to establish joint life in this space, noone can convince me that it is impossible to begin pacification and normal life side by side at least, and in the long run, life and economic dependence of ones on the others will spontaneously bring this about. As a man with such political stance I wished to hear and comprehend reflections of the other party, to see how realistic such an option is, that is, whether common stances could be synchronized in order to resolve the war with political means as soon as possible. Responsibility of people who are politically active is really enormous, not only in the present conditions of the war, but in relation to the future they intend to outline. That is why I consider such engagement my duty, especially because the present political actors who are on top will all be more or less defeated and accept an enormous share of responsibility for the still lasting war.

AIM: As representatives of the opposition, how do you see establishment of peace in B&H? Can you specify your reflections?

DODIK: Establishment of peace, according to my, but also the opinion of other members of the Club of independent deputies, is possible on the foundations of the Contact Group plan, especially since this plan defines a starting position for negotiations about peace. Based on this position, it is possible to structure B&H as a Union in its internationally recognized borders with several constituting units, and if necessary with some kind of internal demarcation, but also with constitutional guarantees of equality of all nations and citizens. In fact the war has conditioned a reality with certain internal demarcations, but in this way it is possible to establish peace and give life a chance to arrange what is best for this space. Any other solution imposed by the war or any other option is neither realistic nor has any quality for us. If the solution we advocate is not accepted we shall be participants in an exceptionally long war, perhaps of a reduced intensity, but with daily new victims, demolition and an uncertain future.

TOKIC: Establishment of a stable peace in the former Yugoslav space will not be possible without punishing the criminals, enabling return of the refugees who wish to go back to their homes, and preservation of internationally recognized borders of the newly founded states. It is possible to effectuate these principles only with political and military presence of the international community, strengthening of the institution of protection of human rights and freedoms, and full democratization of this part of Europe. Bearers of such processes in B&H can only be people and political structures which enjoy at least the minimum of confidence among members of all three nations in Bosnia & Herzegovina.

AIM: How do you assess forces inside Bosnia & Herzegovina which are in favour of a military solution of conflicts?

DODIK: Their force is inversely proportionate to the duration of the war. The military option had the greatest number of supporters at the very beginning, but the longer the war lasts, the greater is the awareness that the only way to to find a solution is peacefully. Establishment of peace by a military solution seems practically impossible to me, because defeat of any party is more that uncertain, and according to the definition of the war, existence of any winner implies the existence of a loser. But, intensifying of war conflicts is the trump card local leaders intend to use in the game, since it is the only one which provides homogenization of their nations and additional motivation to make them respond to the war call. It turned out that the greatest danger for them are periods of ceasefire when the idea about normal life and anti-war feelings irrestibly grow.

TOKIC: The whole structure of various war profiteers sprang up on suffering and misery of the citizens. Using political aptness and newly cropped up patriotism in all spheres of life, a true invasion of primitivism and incompetence is present on the whole territory. The "mob" grew rich overnight, incompetent persons occupied important posts, and certain khojas and priests, as if they themselves do not believe that God exists, are participating in filthiest malversations and manipulations, and even unconcealed extortion. For all of them, the war opened undreamed-of posibilities of becoming rich and gaining enormous power over the majority of impoverished citizens. It is only logic that such persons are in favour of continuation of the war, or, as they themselves say, for "struggle to the last" and a military solution. Naturally, without their personal engagement in it, or that of their families.

AIM: Engagement of the international community in the war in Bosnia & Herzegovina proved to be very problematic. What do you expect of disunited world diplomacy?

TOKIC: The engagement of the most influential Western European countries, the USA and Russia is characterized mostly by an insufficient level of efficiency. I think that the reason for that is the evident disunity of these countries when causes of the war and roads to resolution of the crisis are concerned. The result is, of course, failure of UN forces, and practically no results of Security Council resolutions. Citizens of B&H and B&H itself in it are often used as a specific testing range of diplomatic hairsplitting between the USA, Russia, France, Germany, Great Britain. On the other hand, by persisting on predominant ethnic principles in peace negotiations, the UN and the EC have greatly assisted the war lords and their projects of homogenization. Due to that, there is certain joint responsibility of the international community for what has happened and for what will be happening in B&H. Of course, I remain firm in the stance that without an even more powerful political and military presence of the international community, but on completely different grounds, a successful solution of the drama in Bosnia & Herzegovina is not possible.

DODIK: Regardless of the fact that some people may accuse me from different demagogical and ideological standpoints, I believe that the international community was primarily interested in destroying the former ruling political concept in this space, even at the cost of dissolution of Yugoslavia which I still think was the optimal, at least some kind of a framework for life here. Without going back to what has already been done by international diplomacy, I still think that it is high time that it effectuates a stable ceasefire with its influence and coordinated activity, and as a guarantee, that it enables negotiations which will lead to political decisions on establishing a lasting peace.

AIM: Numerous beastialities, most frequently against civilians were committed during these war years in B&H, and the Hague Court has already revealed the names of those whose responsibility is the greatest. What is your attitude towards all that?

DODIK: It is quite certain that the crimes against civilians are the worst thing which has happened in this war, and that is exactly why I think that it is necessary to insist on such a solution which will imply determination of guilt for the committed crimes. Due to reestablishment of the fundamental trust among nations, it is necessary to determine personal responsibility for such acts, because finding entire nations guilty of crimes implies interethnic hatred and intolerance for who knows how long. Specific responsibility and sentences for perpetrators of crimes, but also all structures responsible for such misdeeds, are necessary more than anything else for the sake of a firm peace. Amnesty for anything of the kind, regardless of who the perpetrator of the crime is, should not exist. Any politicizing in determining responsibility for crimes is the greatest threat to peace.

TOKIC: The sooner the criminals appear in court and are removed from the political stage of B&H, that is, prevented to continue torturing their own nations and commit crimes against other nations, the greater are chances for peace. In the whole process, it is necessary to insist on individual responsibility and against the logic of proclaiming whole nations to be criminal and even genocidal.

AIM: What are your further plans and do you intend to continue mutual contacts?

TOKIC: Our next activities are not aimed at substituting the former peace process. On the contrary, they will primarily be aimed at attempting to deblock and stimulate the peace efforts of international diplomatic circles. Anti-war disposition of the citizens of B&H which is becoming more and more evident, regardless of their nationality and territory they live on, as well as a generally accepted awareness that continuation of the war can solve nothing, are a powerful support to our whole project. The contacts we had so far with certain influential international political structures convinced us that their support would not fail us. But, perhaps time has not come yet to speak of all the details.

DODIK: What is expected to happen in the forthcoming period is continuation of communication between us, but also new meetings where representatives of what one could call democratic alternative groups and organiations from both sides, but individuals too. Although we do not intend to negotiate instead of the local leaders, I think that we can offer a joint proposal for resolving the conflict which should be considered. These meetings ought to show what interest there is on both sides for establishing peace based on foundations advocated by the international community itself. Our club of independent deputies will do everything it can to indicate a certain number of people, especially those who are engaged in politics, to support the political option we are talking about and work on a joint project. After all, it is not so impracticable to carry out a free poll among the citizens and see what they think about the idea.

AIM: Do you think the answer to something like that would be affirmative in the environments where you come from? Are you just optimists or you truly believe that the option you speak in favour of is possible?

DODIK: It is just a question of time when such a political solution we are talking about will become reality. If there will be life in this space, it automatically means that the present alternative political option will have to be adopted.

TOKIC: The war in Bosnia & Herzegovina cannot be resolved in any other way. After all, I have never accepted the "reality" consisting of ethnic pens and feuds which are allegedly the only places we can live in. Resistance to such "reality" is increasing among the citizens of Bosnia & Herzegovina too.

DRAZENA PERANIC