BOSNIA IS A CLOSED EPISODE

Interview: Zdravko Grebo

AIM, SARAJEVO, January 13, 1994

Zdravko Grebo, professor of the Faculty of Law in Sarajevo is well known to the broad public as an eternal oppositionist, rebel and zealous advocate of civic ideas in the territory of the former Yugoslavia. He often refers to himself as a "street fighter" which, for the most part corresponds to the truth and has been a constant of his action ever since the 1968 Movement. He belongs to that rare group of intellectuals who consciously opted to stay in besieged Sarajevo after war broke out and he is the editor of the widely listened to radio-station symbolically called "THE WALL".

AIM: In one of our talks, long before war broke out, you told me that you had no illusions that the newly promoted God - people, you were referring to the republican leaders, would leave the Yugoslav community without laying claim to most of the territory of Bosnia. Your prophecy has come true...

Grebo: It would perhaps be more accurate to say that I played safe. I think that the disastrous forecasts I made at the time were actually analytical exaggerations which are, to be self-ironic, expected from an intellectual taking part in public life, while secretly hoping that worse will not come to worst. On the other hand, while risking to earn the worst of all possible labels which one can get in this area, to be proclaimed a Yugo - nostalgic - I knew that without Yugoslavia there could be no Bosnia, and vice versa.

This is not the repetition of a socialist - realistic slogan on Bosnia as a mini Yugoslavia, on the surplus of brotherhood and unity, which we liked to sell. It is simply a question of recognizing the technological principle and the realization that nationalism is the only way in which the totalitarian communism can be conquered in a ideologically meaningful and politically efficient way. That meant a tragic outcome and the establishment of national states which implied the rounding up of territories. It was clear that Bosnia and Herzegovina would have to break up, because it was built on the same principle as our once joint country. Bosnia, naturally, has historic substance and a tradition of joint life of sorts, but when the national principle became the exclusive principle of political organizing - it lost every sense. Therefore, it is not a question of any excess spite of Serbian and Croatian imperialism and hegemony, but rather the logical, consistent implementation of ideas. Simply, if you are making a national state, it is an inadmissible historic luxury to leave a large part of your people outside the rounded up territory, which implied that greater Serbia and greater Croatia had to incorporate into themselves the parts of their peoples living in the B & H. After all this, the remainder cannot be Bosnia, but possibly, a reservation of sorts in which Moslems would live.

AIM: I suppose that this analysis is the source of your words that Bosnia always turned out to be Yugoslavia's small, but bloody change.

Grebo: Yugoslavia deservedly collapsed on account of its essential equalization with the concept of larger Serbia, it lent itself to manipulations to that end in many respects, especially in the interpretations of the ruling party and the YPA. However, a more reasonable analysis will probably show that it broke up primarily because it was a non-democratic state and not a multinational one. Bosnia became small change so that all the others could - and I make no difference at all between the Slovenes, Croats, Serbs or the Macedonians, for that - consistently carry out their programmes, with their selfishness being more than evident. For, everyone pursued his own ends without taking account of the fact that the highest price for the break up of the country would have to be paid by this peaceful and naive people - these critters as I refer to them with sympathy as of late, to which I myself belong.

AIM: How do you see the political blindness of the B&H political authorities, i.e. of Alija Izetbegovic to be more specific, who needed two years of war to realize that both Belgrade and Zagreb were working on the same plan - the division of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

Grebo: I am somewhat reluctant to answer this question because we must introduce something else into this story of ours, namely the evident fact that B&H is a retort for testing solutions, both for the former Soviet Union and for the world in general, i.e. that things produced in the laboratory are at work in B&H. Because of that there are probably some limits owing to which many people more powerful than Izetbegovic, I am referring to Tudjamn and Milosevic, are not free to play out to the end some roles, probably assigned to them. This partly gives the answer to the scandalous failure exhibited by Izetbegovic to recognize things. On the other hand, while a country is at war and a man in trouble, and here I am referring both to him and myself, it is perhaps a bit rude to add to his trouble. Nevertheless, one must accept risks and it is really hard to remain silent to the disastrously poor estimates made by authorities, of which, of course, Izetbegovic is only a personification. Starting from the fact that it was not realized that this war was primarily a Serbo - Croat conflict in which the Moslems would, even if they did survive, probably be only disposable goods - they would simply be the most massive victim of genocide and, literally speaking, that little weight on the scales repeatedly changing sides, having no weight of its own - mistakes which all the peoples, including the Bosnian, will never forgive them for. The present B&H leadership is guilty of many things. I do not doubt the mildness and good intentions of Mr.Izetbegovic in the least, although some say that he is crafty and power - craving.

However, to be some sort of an Eastern sage at this time, which is Izetbegovic's image, is equal to irresponsibility and ultimately to not being up to one's historic role, which a president cannot afford. In the meantime, what at first was a publicity slogan on civil war, slowly turned into reality. To be sure, the civil war was artifically produced in B&H, actually a year later, so that the saddest fact will be that those who produced it will be able to say that they were right from the beginning and that is nothing but a tribal conflict among the Croats, Serbs and Moslems. In that way they will justify not only their acts of conquest but also their crimes. Globally viewed, we have simply been "pawned" by the world - that is sad, but it is over. We are a closed episode.

AIM: Nevertheless, even though borders are persistently being drawn and the country dismembered in this two-year war, no side is as yet satisfied with the decision. How could, in your view, this "bartering" end, and is there a just solution at all?

Grebo: For a long time now I have been plagued by the suspicion that more or less everyone was ready, from the beginning, to divide Bosnia along the lines of the three-part government that won the elections, but there was the psychological difficulty of explaining that to the people. Perhaps this two-year catastrophe was necessary precisely for the reason for the people to accept that and to prove to us and instill into us all, who know that it is not true that different people cannot live together, such an opinion and desperate conclusion. That is why there is no just solution, but history never was based on just solutions. The right question would be if there is any more permanent solution which would mean peace - we are regrettably counting off the last days of a joint B&H, if this was not clear to some people from the very outset. For everything has already been decided, and what remains is to reach agreement on some marginal things, which makes matters even more disgraceful. But, even if they divide it, and get international guarantees for that, there can be no lasting peace here unless war criminals are punished. Only this would in the Balkans, such as they are, including Bosnia,offer the people afflicted by "cancer of the soul" after everything they had gone through , a sedative to enable them to bear it more easily and go on living with it.

AIM: Judging by everything the Tudjman - Milosevic tandem is well on the way of succeeding in its intentions and then coming clear with no serious consequences for itself and its undemocratic regimes.

Grebo: We are unmistakably dealing with good-for-nothings, who will, regrettably, be rewarded. If for the sake of this trading with Bosnia and appeasing someone's conscience a trial is really held - it will probably involve some ten fools such as Herak, who was tried in Sarajevo - and they will sell us a pig in a poke, claiming that the world adhered to its principles and kept its own promises. If for nothing else, then they should be punished for the shameful trading which was secretly recorded the last time in Geneva - the peasant-fair trading which is the most monstruous thing seen so far. That is, regrettably, how all their meetings look like.

AIM: On the one hand, there is a rather clear thinking that the expansion of the territories of Croatia and Serbia at the expense of Bosnia is only a matter of days and, on the other,the authorities in Sarajevo wish to show that they are not creating a Moslem state in its center...

Grebo: The Republic of Srpska is functioning perfectly under the given conditions as part of the projected greater Serbia; Herzeg - Bosnia is part of Croatia in administrative terms and operates vis-a-vis the center and the parent state much better than some other regions such as Dalmatia or Istria - that is probably a fait accompli. There is no dilemma whatsoever that what remains will be a Moslem state and if historic stock-taking is taken one day it will be seen that the whole story about Jamahirya and Islamic fundamentalism in B & H was in fact possible only with the firm collaboration of Serbian and Croatian nationalism and with the help of Europe. In short, an Islamic state in the heart of Europe will be created as the remainder of dismembered Bosnia and when that happens there is no doubt that the most radical right nationalists will gain supremacy in that central part. That is the universal logic of nationalism. Simply, Europe and its former neighbours will be the sires of what they are condemning as a "monster". Simply, if Catholic and Orthodox fundamentalism is not dangerous to the world, why should Moslem fundamentalism be? They will only transfer their spitting image to the authorities here.

AIM: You have recently returned from Prague where you had occasion to see your one - time Sarajevo gang - Kusto, Nele, Ciro and the rest. It seems, that this nevertheless, was a meeting of two different worlds.

Grebo: I had no personal dilemmas in this war and always slept soundly and peacefully, but this meeting in Prague shook me deeply. For, this meeting is of multiple importance regardless of the fact that it took place in the classical iconography of Sarajevo: with a lot of shouting, alcohool, drawing by the sleeve and threats - I think that I have finally realized that our emigre tragedy will be far worse than any previous one. Nevertheless, I have no intention of joining those people who are shamelessly selling their suffering, personal dilemmas and one - time friendships in this war. Regardless of the fact that the Belgrade media have proclaimed me a fascist who advocates that people be prevented from returning to Sarajevo by administrative measures, which is naturally just another lie, when I am alone with myself I really do not make any moral judgement on whether anyone had the right to leave the city or if those who have remained are heroes. I am only disgusted with people who left to save their ass, and then made a career on and profited from that - that is ugly. In that case it would be much more honest to forget Sarajevo, to say that some highlanders from East Bosnia and Sandjak have appeared, that this city is a sunken Atlantis, and then to turn to their European careers.

AIM: It seems that you are inclined to believe that the lack of understanding exhibted by your friends in Prague is identical to the one shown by the international community?

Grebo: The reason that I was shattered to pieces by that talk in Prague is the fact that I don't care a hoot about Carrington, Owen and the rest, but when someone who has spent his life in this city and made a career precisely on what this city is, shows that same lack of understanding - then that is tragic. This shows how fantastically large the manipulative power of the media is and that, in fact they started, are waging and will probably tragically end this war. That is indeed a genuine production of crimes. The absurdity of that spiral of hatred and fratricidal war - and that is literally what is in question here - is that the people who opted not to be here will be those with the greatest hatred for everything here. Simply, as long as that part of the Sarajevo and the Bosnia which we all love exists, that will be a great burden on their conscience and soul. I once even jokingly said: if Raso (Karadzic), through Godly providence, decides to leave us alive and if someone manages to pull Tudjman strongly by his left ball - his soft spot - and he gives up on Bosnia - the ones to destroy us will be our own "runaways", who will need to obliterate memories of something which is, nevertheless, the source and innocent victim of their shameful and cowardly behaviour.

AIM: You recently admitted to me that, sometimes, on your way home, you deliberately walk through the middle of the street, morbidly wishing that someone will notice you over the front sight of his rifle from the surrounding hills, and as you said, put an end to this torture. That is a feeling which people outside this hell probably cannot understand. Nevertheless, isn't that a bit too much pessimism for a "fighter" and in line with what the poet said " better a horrible end, than horror without end"?

Grebo: It is truly - both in the symbolic and literal sense of the word - suicidal. Indeed, when I walk along my street I intentionally walk in the middle of the road for a long, long time knowing that someone out there, on the mythical mountain Trebevic sees every greasy spot on my jacket from the back, and that he can fire that sniper bullet and thus end the whole thing. Sometimes I feel that this might bring calm, an end, because everything that is happening to this people is a big insult. Such thoughts are a protest against that. The fact that I sometime dare the Romanian sniperist is a matter of our Balkan pigheadedness and Mediterranean insolence, but I really think that the people who survive everything in Sarajevo, and the number of us is smaller and smaller every day, will become a new species.

GORAN TODOROVIC