WE MUST PERSEVERE

An interview with Ejup Ganicc, a Member of the Presidency of Bosnia&Herzegovina

AIM, Sarajevo, January 5, 1994

The interview with Dr. Ejup Ganicc in the premises of the Presidency of B&H was interrupted several times by heavy detonations which shook the whole building. It was an authentic milieu for a conversation with this controversial Muslim politician who is generally believed to be a protagonist of the extremist faction among B&H authorities and a supporter of continuation of the war. Quite calmly and with self-confidence, Dr. Ganicc, among other, denies such accusations, foretells a change in Croatian politics towards Bosnia in the near future, and resolutely denies that there is a desire to create a Muslim state. At the same time, he doubts the possibility of B&H ever coming to life as a union of republics.

Ganicc: It is necessary to negotiate, but I am not an optimist concerning signing of an agreement as Lord Owen sees it. This agreement and the darft do not include anything essential and do not resolve the crisis in B&H - it is an academic paper which does not penetrate into the essence and does not cover the major problems of this state.

AIM: In the meantime, the war in Bosnian space is not dying down. Karadzzicc threatens that soon those still living will be counted instead of the dead, and Tudjman is mobilizing additional forces and sending his army into Bosnia, and the Army of B&H is promoting new generals. Everything speaks in favour of the fact that military option is selected ...

Ganicc: We would like to avoid the military option, but we are expecting Serbia to launch a new attack. Croatia's threats are nonsense. As concerning the Serbian regime, it sees its survival in continuation of the war - that is the mental structure of the authorities there. Yet, they are not as powerful as they think: they have the artillery and their criminal units, but they do not have a people's army. And the fact that Karadzzicc is threatening Sarajevo is nothing new - if he only could, he would have already been here. As concerning Croatia, these are unconceivable nonsense: the state which is disintegrated in all aspects is now trying to intensify aggression against a sovereign state with 17% of its population being are Croats who are offered and, according to the Constitution actually have 1/3 of the power - and Croatia is fighting against it. Obviously, by acting in this way, Tudjman is preparing grounds for implemenation of sanctions against Croatia.

AIM: In this context, can a meeting between Tudjman and Izetbegovicc planned to take place in the next few days change anything?

Ganicc: We will not send our first team to these negotiations. There were hundreds of such so-called historic meetings - personally I do not expect much. It would be very good if President Tudjman would listen to the citizens of Dubrovnik, Dalmatians, Istrians... what he should do in Bosnia&Herzegovina, because the policy of Croatian leadership is completely wrong. Until Tudjman changes his way of thinking about Bosnia and recognizes sovereignty of Bosnia in his own mind, these meetings will be useless. Therefore, nothing spectacular will happen until Bosnia is left to the Bosnians and until Croatian Defence Council ceases to serve as a protection and a cover-up for withdrawing Croatian population.

AIM: Do you believe that the war in Bosnia&Herzegovina can be terminated by defeating the parties in conflict and what would be the price of such a choice? I am asking you this in the context of your statement that the guerilla warfare should be waged to the end?

Ganicc: Guerilla warfare is forced on us. Because the threat coming from Serbia intensifies this option for us and forces us to elaborate it. We will not allow a single Serbian family to occupy houses of Muslims-Bosnians in Eastern Bosnia. I would like to tell them on this occasion not to go there, because something terrible will happen to them: maybe tomorrow, in a month or a year... Because those who were expelled have nowehere to go and once shall return. On the other hand, coordinated pressure exerted by the Croats together with Serbia is also forcing us into guerilla warfare. And yet, something very important happened last year - Croatian Defence Council was defeated, it does not exist as an army in Bosnia anymore. It consists of dismembered groups, gangs , so there is still hope that Croatia will admit defeat of its policy and seek a new approach in order to preserve integrity of Croatia.

AIM: To what extent have you contributed to the dismemberment of the Croatian Defence Council, for instance in Sarajevo? What will the destiny of the arrested commander Zelicc be?

Ganicc: The background of the Croatian Defence Council in Sarajevo is highly problematic, and the distrust began after their folly dealings in Stup and trading with the Chetniks. At the same time, there was a group of city youngsters who defended Sarajevo - there was even 80 of them who gave their lives for it. On the other hand, Boban wanted to have his representation in the city, which we could not allow after all. We initiated transformation which some were dissatisfied with, but we consider formation of the "King Tvrtko" brigade under the command of the First Corps to be a good framework for the defence of the city. Because we cannot have brigades in Sarajevo controlled from outside the city. There are some wonderful units of the Croatian Defence Corps in Northern Bosnia which determined their role differently from the start: the defence of Bosnia comes first for them, and then everything else. We are flexible about their symbols until they are used in the service of defence of Bosnia - everything else including Croatian units in Herzegovina are by definition agressors. We have no alternative and we will defend Bosnia with our lives. It may last as long as it is necessary, and Croatia and Serbia will not be able to endure in this race. We have no alternative : the ground is hard and the skies are high. Zelicc will be given a trial, although there are complaints that some things are improper about this trial - the public should be allowed to see the truth.

AIM: The international community hesitated too long and made a series of mistakes concerning the crisis in Bosnia & Herzegovina. What is the extent of its guilt for what is happening, according to your opinion?

Ganicc: Had we had arms in the very beginning, B&H would have been defended. Because there were a lot of Croats and Serbs who were in favour of Bosnia, besides the Muslims-Bosnians. We would have automatically stopped aggression altogether. The absence of the assistance enabled progress of the Serbian army, and it created in Tudjman a desire to reactivate his agreement with Milossevicc on division of Bosnia. The idea was - the Serbs have occupied one half, let me hurry and take my share according to the agreement reached in Karadjordjevo. That is how the international community, by tying our hands, contributed to Tudjman's and Milossevicc's intentions to divide Bosnia. It so happened that we have nowhere to turn.

AIM: Who are, according to you, the main obstructionists to a resolute approach to resolving the crisis in B&H, and don't you think that the USA deceived you when they promised you protection at the moment independence was proclaimed?

Ganicc: The main obstructionists are within the European Community - Great Britain and France, and they are trying to exert pressure on American adiministration that this is a European problem and that it should be solved by Europe alone. The Americans were not too eager about it anyway, so that it all was to our disadvantage. And yet in time, they should change their attitude, because all their moral principles of external policy were buried here. It still is not too late and I expect that the USA will change their attitude. It is a powerful state with a slow mechanism: especially since B&H is a small country which has no oil, no raw materials, so it is not in anybody's strategic interest. However, now that Zzirinovsky appeared, America has got the message: should it allow a fascist such as Slobodan Milossevicc consolidate his position in a region however small it may be from the global aspect, legalization of neo-fascism in one place creates another, far greater and more dangerous. So that the results of American hesitation are felt already in the negative sense. On the other hand, the world cannot stop wondering at what Tudjman is doing, because he is ruining his own foundations, contributing to disintegration of his own coubntry. Of course, if he had not reached an agreement with Milossevicc to hand him over the occupied parts of Croatia - that would explain everything.

AIM: The opinion that the division of Bosnia into three parts is inevitable has already ben widely accepted. The proposal of the Union of B&H exists only on paper - do you expect annex of parts of B&H to their so-called motherlands to take place soon?

Ganicc: This porposal is still on paper, and it might as well remain there - it can hardly ever come to life. Should we abide by this proposal we would have at least a million people who would be forced to move from their homes. Therefore, the proposal of the Union is not serious. It goes along the line of destroyal of B&H: to shove the rural population into cities and disturb the natural balance, to change the structure of the population and thus create mutual intolerance and an untenable situation - this is the objective of the aggressor. Therefore, I should like to issue a warning: individual reactions of the refugees should not be underestimated, Croatia should assess the prospects of operation of its tourism, international cooperation ... If you have people who were expelled from Mostar, Travnik etc, you are wrong to believe that you can have peace around Bosnia. We will not be able to influence the conduct of these dissastisfied people.

AIM: It was taken for granted that the part of the territory still controlled by the authorities in Sarajevo will become the core of a Muslim state...

Ganicc: You see, the concept of the Serbian regime is to have all the Muslims gathered in one place, at first, and then to attack it with all their might, under the very pretext that we wish to create a Muslim state, because we have gathered in one place. Therefore, first to place us in an ethnic ghetto, and then to attack with all the available forces. We are not creating a Muslim state - we shall create a state of the Bosnians, meaning a state of the Serbs, Croats and Muslims-Bosnians. On the territories controlled by the Amry of B&H, we must ensure democratic rights and freedoms for all. A patriotic feeling towards Bosnia & Herzegovina is stronger than any other feeling - it is a cohesive force. For such an objective it is worth to continue the struggle - at the frontline where possible, and where it is not - by guerilla.

AIM: You are very often condemned for flirtation with Islamic countries which exceeds the usual diplomatic limits...

Gabicc: It is natural that we are turned towards them because they are our market and the gurantors of our economic survival as an independent state - these are our legitimate state interests. We are the exclusive inheritors of the former merket of Yugoslavia in that part of the world, and this should be clear to both Serbia and Croatia. Croatia cannot pretend to be in good relations with Islanmic countries and at the same time exert aggression against Muslims. This was seen through a long time ago.

AIM: Nevertheless you cannot deny that there is extremism within Muslim corpus.

Ganicc: Unfortunately, there were failures among us too. There were quite a few black sheep even in some segments of the state and it was necessary to get rid of them. We could have done many things better, but what can we do now.

AIM: You are often presented by the media as the main protagonist of the extremist faction withinh the B&H authorities, and a supporter of the continuation of the war. How great is your actual power?

Ganicc: I am just in favour of a just solution and a stable peace in B&H. I am not in favour of an artificial peace, and some kind of semi-solutions. Noone has authorized me to divide this country - I am a serious man and I have no such intentions. Am I to perform such surgeries on other people's destinies and the state - that is pure tragedy. Who, for exmaple, has the right to remove the Croats from Northern Bosnia? Such speculations must fail. I have pledged allegiance to Bosnia and I do not intend to divide it - if this is extremism, than let it be.

AIM: Rumours circle around Sarajevo for some time now about your conflict with Prime Minister Silajdzzicc, as a possible successor to the post of President Izetbegovicc, once the war is over. Should a new division among the Muslims be expected and a new struggle for power?

Ganicc: We must create a state with the rule of the law: legal elections are the only way to new leaders. First, the war should be stopped, and then elections should be organized - who the people vote for then shall be in power. There are a few matured politicians here among the Bosnians, but this is just the beginning of the competition, and these are premature speculations. To me B&H is more important as a state to me than my position in it. Because, look at who we are negotiating with: Karadzzicc, Krajissnik, Boban - these are all men with 300-400 years of prison in line for them for what they have done and you cannot make history with such men. One must be realistic about it.

AIM: The end of the war, therefore is not in sight?

Ganicc: It is possible to seek optimism only if a realistic policy of the international is adopted. Because, Bosnia is being divided for over twenty months, and the more you divide it, the more it defends itself. The more you divide it, the more problems emerge, and you realize that it is impossible to do it. It is realistic to expect a change in Croatian policy in the course of this year, because it has hit the bottom - except if Tudjman had reached an agreement with Milossevicc to hand over the territores and that would mean the end of Croatia as a state. That is why the only thing left for us to do is to persevere, it must burst somewhere.

GORAN TODOROVICC