INTERVIEW GIVEN BY DR.MARKO ORSOLIC

AIM Germany, Munich

"In addition to the putsch executed by the Army, like in all areas, a putsch of national parties over the nations was also carried out in Bosnia. The representatives of parties aided by the feeble diplomacy and poor knowledge of things on the part of Lord Owen and the European Community, were proclaimed representatives of the people, although they had not been elected as such. Thus, the SDA turned out to be the party of all the Moslems, the SDS the party of all the Serbs, and the HDZ the party of all the Croats in Bosnia. All the other parties were proclaimed leftist and defamed in the most unscrupulous manner. The extent to which this barbarism is without precedent is clear if we know that B&H was never in its history a state based on religious or nationalist principles. Not even in the Middle Ages during the rule of the principle cuius regio illius religio, when all other European countries were thus structured".

The once esteemed professor of theology and the philosophy of religion at the University of Sarajevo, one of the most prominent theoreticians of ecumenism in the former Yugoslavia, the Franciscan Dr.Marko Orsolic now has to live far from his mother country and native concepts, and speak a language other than his own. Consequently, a part of this talk took place in a rustic Munich beer bar. Is there at least a little hope for us too, in this associative detail?

Although aware that the end of the infernal circle of evil is still far away, Marko Orsolic wants to believe in the possibility of joint life once these bloody divisions and migrations are over. That is why, he founded the International Center for the Promotion of Inter - Religious Dialogue in Sarajevo, even before the war broke out in Bosnia, on December 10, 1991 - the Day of Human Rights. In these times of suffering the Center, which also has an Orthodox priest, an imam, the president of the Jewish community and also numerous atheists, does not function strictly as a church organization. It is, rather, considered a peace movement which asserts human rights and extends material assistance to the citizens of B&H, especially those in the worst situation - mixed marriages, who are often by-passed by "Dobrotvor", "Karitas" and "Merhamet" parcels. Up to now, over 400 women from mixed marriages, together with 1,200 children and nearly 20,000 young men, mainly conscripts, have been taken out of the Bosnian inferno thanks to the extraordinary efforts of Marko Orsolic. Orsolic is currently participating in what is known as the "Friedensrunde" (The Peace Circle) in Munich which rallies Serbs, Croats, Moslems and Germans, trying to elicit the support of the domestic public to help those in need, devoid of any religious or national discrimination.

How did the "betrayal" of the national cause start?

Like of "its" other believers and priests, Bosnia also expected of Marko Orsolic to stand under his national symbols.

"When I received the "Sixth of April" award of the city of Sarajevo, Mrs.Plavsic and Mr.Kljujic were at the reception organized on that occasion and the latter told me it was time to go over to their side. I replied that I had never been on any side, and that I would not be a member of the Democratic-Christian Party even if the Pope himself were its leader, because my vocation of priest can only be universal. Like Jesus who died for all people, a priest also must be for all people. I added that I had voted for the SDP only because they were anti-fascists and for a federal setup of the state. Regrettably, to be an anti-fascist here automatically entails being proclaimed a communist, which is needless to say, one of our many follies".

AIM: At that time before the war in Bosnia you refused to cross the threshold of the Catholic church whenever the national flag of Croatia was displayed on it.

ORSOLIC: When some high HDZ officials in B&H came to the Sarajevo Cathedral for the midnight mass, it was decorated by the chequered-board flags and coats of arms of Croatia. I then suggested that we do the same in the Franciscan Church of Saint Anthony, but to display five-pointed red stars and invite Mr. Durakovic.Then some people said: don't do that, you know him, he will do that. Well, why not? If the first goes, so does the second. I, however, really do not see why all that should be put on a candle that symbolizes religion. For, like the light of a candle illuminates space, religion has the same meaning in the spiritual sense. And if you attach something as transient as a nation to such a symbolic expression of such a profound truth, then you will have joined the unjoinable. This is what we do here all the time. I, for one, would never link atheism with a nation. These imported as it were, symbols featured on all "national branch offices" in B&H. From the very outset the HDZ worked on the betrayal of Bosnia because it had its headquarters in Zagreb rather in Sarajevo. The "Lijepa nasa" (the Croat hymn

• Our Beautiful Homeland) was sung at gatherings and allegiance pledged to the homeland of Croatia. The SDS did the same, choosing for its leader a man that had been elected in another republic, now another state. The SDA, on the other hand, has never to this very date truly shown and proved that it wants a civil, democratic and lay state, even allowing Islamic ideas to be increasingly prominent, not realising that the fact that the Moslems are a majority does not mean that the state must be religiously impregnated. In Turkey, for instance, the Moslems account for about 99% of the population, yet Turkey is a democratic, lay and not an Islamic state. Moslems are in the majority in 65 countries of the world and only two of them are Islamic states.

AIM: You are of the opinion that all three national blocks in B&H are responsible for the tragedy there, that all are to blame for the dismemberment of Bosnia. Because of this, the Croatian press has put you among the traitors. It criticized you for not knowing or not wanting to know who the aggressor in Bosnia was, i.e. for not admitting that it was only the Serbs.

ORSOLIC: I am obviously not a favourite of some people and the mass media in these crazy times, but it seems to me that what I am doing is not for these troubled times of ours either. The press not only informs, but also forms people and our press wants to form warriors and not citizens and people. I was harshly attacked by the press in Croatia, even by religious papers such as the "Glas koncila" (Voice of the Council). They stated that I claimed not to know who the aggressor in Bosnia was. I surely know who the first aggressor was and who the second aggressor, i.e. co-aggressor was. It is not, however, up to religious communities to say who the aggressor is, that is the role of politics. The role of religious communities and believers is to struggle against the evil spirit of aggressiveness, spreading like a modern plague, recognizing no borders. When speaking of the accusations levied by the "Glas koncila", I must ask myself why the "Glas koncila" carried only photographs of demolished Catholic churches. Why did it not publish which Orthodox churches had been destroyed in Croatia!? And what about mosques, synagogues? They are all houses of the Lord. The same applies to the other side. Why does the "Pravoslavlje" (Orthodoxy) report only on demolished Orthodox churches? Can one remain silent to such abuse? No side says a word about the awful abuses and manipulations, which violate the Gospel and God knows what else. Where are the intellectuals and theologians-critics, why haven't they raised their voice!?

A few months ago I met a Croat who had taken part in the destruction of an Orthodox church. When I asked him why he had done that, he answered "Well, they destroyed ours". "What then is the difference between you and them", I asked. "They started first," he said. This is an instance of reverse thinking: they started first. Action must be based on ethic principles, not on chronology. In any case, when we are dealing with these who-started-first issues, I must say this: Serb extremists did start first in 1991, but Croat extremists started first in 1941, and Moslem extremists will probably start first in the year 2001, and thus all will become equal in crime and no one will be able to find peace in this territory. Some ethic is neccessary in this whole game: an Orthodox episcope cannot be expected to know who the criminals from 1991 are, if for instance Catholic bishops even 50 years later do not know who the criminals from 1941 were. Let no one say that there is no connection whatsoever between the two, because there is, and some.

AIM: In addition to all these nationally "unsuitable" thoughts, I know of some of your other opinions due to which you certainly are not in the ranks of those who could deserve the papers of "our beautiful homeland", even if you lived in Croatia. In an interview you said, for instance: "I am a Croat. That is how I declare myself, but I do not feel one". Is that correct?

ORSOLIC: Yes. I also said that I felt a Bosnian Croat, where the "Bosnian" is more important that the "Croat".

AIM: You have constantly opposed the satanization of the Serbian people, both here and in the West?

ORSOLIC: Yes, especially in the first stages of the war in Bosnia, a whole nation was daily, from hour to hour as it were, anathematized. The media bombarded us frenetically only with "The Serbs are to blame". I do not recognize the concept of collective guilt, I consider it insane. An entire people, all the members of that people cannot be condemned and satanized because of the crime of a part, however numerous, of that people. The Western public should pay special attention to that, in view of the exceptionally strong influence of the public opinion shaped by the media.

AIM: You have no dilemmas as to the causes of the Bosnian war drama? You do not believe that that war started as a civil and religious one?

ORSOLIC: This war started as a war for creating nationally monolithic states. This fact cannot be altered even by the large number of people on all sides who are today genuine religious fanatics. Three nationalist blocks have won in Bosnia. The slippery ground of a false compromise could not hold long. We from the Center for Inter-Religious Dialogue severely criticized this coalition, while many saw our criticism as longing for the old one-party system. That is, naturally, pure nonsense. We advocated authentic democracy and a civil state. Thus, actually the dictatorship of a party was only replaced by the dictatorship of a nation. I for one believe that the causes of these bloody war dramas date back to the time of communism or its collapse. The last Congress of the League of Communists of Yugoslavia opened the way to bloodshed. That was the beginning of the war.

AIM: It is only natural to ask you to which extent our confessional communities have contributed to all this, if not by doing, then by not-doing or flirting with "their own" national side?

ORSOLIC: The intellectuals fell far short of the mark at the last elections. As did the prophetic voice of the religious communities, although they were perhaps still the better part of that bad world. They, nevertheless failed in their prophetic and ecumenical mission in the sense that they unreservedly upheld the tenets of the Second Vatican Council, namely emphasis on the transcedental nature and dignity of the human being and respect for human rights deriving therefrom. It were not the highest ranks of hierarchy but the medium levels, I would say, that even flirted with the new national leaders, often putting themselves in the service of national parties. They thus failed to stand up to the historic challenge of the times. His Holliness Patriarch Pavle, Cardinal Kuharic and Rais Selimoski signed, albeit in Geneva, in September 1992 a document condemning the abuse of religions and churches by national leaderships and the ethnic cleansing and monstruous crimes of all the parties to the war. But, who at all learned anything of this document? The media and masses had no access to it. I must add that the churches, because of traditionalism and unwillingness to accept change, belatedly realised what was in question. All three churches. The Catholic church is burdened by traditionalism. The deliberations of the Second Vatican Council, with the exception of the most learned and highest members of the hierarchy, have not yet permeated the feelings and views of the believers at large. The Orthodox church is also burdened by traditionalism and anachronism, the sediments of newer political history. Our Islam, on the other side, does not realise that it is a kind of European Islam very specific as compared to Saudi-Arabian and other Islams. If it wants a dialogue with Christianity it must embrace the principles of enlightenment, human rights and humanism. Only when monotheistic communities succeed in emancipating themselves along these lines, will they be able to contribute to the establishment of civilized relations among nations. I am convinced that a dialogue among the nations in our country cannot be established without a dialogue among religions, because religions so fatally correspond to nations here. The eschatological and prophetic dimension of religion must be restored and in practice, translated into commitment to justice and peace or religions will not only with us, but also in Eastern Europe as a whole, lose in credibility. Idols such as national ideology may not and must not be put above the universal nature of religion and the church, and call it in question. The words of some of our liturgies sound awful: "Homeland, take my life in exchange for yours". This is an entirely anti - Christian thought, because life can be given only to God and not to this or that idol. Even before the war in Bosnia, I consistently advocated and still do the strict separation of the church from the state, of religion from ideology, of faith from daily politics. In that sense, I would prohibit religiously based parties.

AIM: It seems that you still believe in the possibility of the existance of a Bosnia of sorts. Are we not witnessing the last act of its division?

ORSOLIC: Bosnia cannot be divided, torn apart because any tearing annihilates it. In that sense a torn Bosnia is the death of Bosnia, just like a torn man is at once a corpse. I think that the international community has played a disastrous role in believing that a Bosnia divided into three states can still be a community of sorts, that it could be held together. I believed and still do that the solution is a UN protectorate over Bosnia and Herzegovina, complete disarmament of that region and the entire Balkans and the calling of new elections in B&H under international control. The bringing of war criminals before an international tribunal for war crimes would break this vicious circle. Regrettably, I am not sure that there exist either internal or external forces which could channell developments in this direction. What I am completely sure of is that a divided Bosnia is no longer Bosnia, but extended Serbia, extended Croatia and Moslemania and what I fear most is that we may end the twentieth century by mutual extermination. Those who possibly survive will realise one day, and I think that that day is not so far off, that they have already lived in B&H in anticipation of a united Europe, in the genuine place of human assertion. They will understand that, when they started dividing, they turned the beginning of heaven into the bottom of hell.

AIM: Some might accuse you of Bosnian Yugonostalgia.

ORSOLIC: It is all the same to me where I live. I am neither Yugonostalgic nor Yugophobic. It is only important that I live in a community of democracy and human rights.

Branka TRIVIC

For "Borba" excerpts from the interview

"I would not be a member of the Democratic-Christian party even if the Pope himself were its leader because my vocation of priest can only be universal".

"From the very outset the HDZ worked on the betrayal of Bosnia because it had its headquarters in Zagreb rather in Sarajevo. The "Lijepa nasa" (the Croat hymn - Our Beautiful Homeland) was sung at gatherings and allegiance pledged to the homeland of Croatia. The SDS did the same, choosing for its leader a man that had been elected in antoher republic, now another state. The SDA, on the other hand, has never to this very date truly shown and proved that it wants a civil democratic and lay state".

"I am obviously not a favourite of some people and the mass media in these crazy times, but it seems to me that what I am doing is not for these troubled times of ours either. The press not only informs, but also forms people and our press wants to form warriors and not citizens and people".

"Serb extremists did start first in 1991, but Croat extremists started first in 1941, and Moslem extremists will probably start first in the year 2001, and thus all will become equal in crime and no one will be able to find peace in this territory."

"I am a Croat. That is how I declare myself, but I do not feel one". I feel a Bosnian Croat, where the "Bosnian" is more important that the "Croat".

"I do not recognize the concept of collective guilt, I consider it insane. An entire people, all the members of that people cannot be condemned and satanized because of the crime of a part, however numerous, of that people".

"It is all the same to me where I live. I am neither Yugonostalgic nor Yugophobic. It is only important that I live in a community of democracy and human rights".